In tech sales the gameplan is to listen for the levers that need to be pulled to stop the customer from losing money. Or make them a lot more money. And that justifies the purchase of the tech.
(95% of salespeople do not do this naturally lol)
Sounds like your VP took the frame easily because he spent the call listening to form a much sharper understanding of the business on the table.
So when he articulates that understanding, the other VP just looks like a dork in the way of the outcome of making a lot of money for his biz.
I never had the right word for it before, but "latent" captures it perfectly. The moment someone needs to show dominance, it reveals a doubt that requires outside validation, whereas not needing to display it usually means you already have it. In poker and with chicks, I’ve always thought of this dynamic as "slowplaying", showing less strength than you hold (or not if you wanna bluff on sequencing alone) and letting the overly aggressive player trap themselves, extracting value by using their own momentum. Since you’ve mentioned sports betting before, I wasn’t sure if you’ve played much poker, but I’m curious, do you see this as the same principle you call Judo, or are there meaningful differences in your view?
thanks for the kind words OG. exactly, it is weird like that where by flexing it, we reduce the impression of it. It does reveal doubt, which bleeds frame (much of game is just showing outwardly that we have won the battle vs doubt inwardly).
Not a huge poker player but I think slowplaying is in the realm of it. I think a better example would be bluffing hard and showing you were, getting them confident often dont have shit. Build their confidence, then bam, catch em cocky on a big pot. Another example is chess when we use gambits. Trading capital to cost them tempo, structure, and positioning, setting up strong counterplay. My guy friend is very sumo, its funny bc his girl and I are expert judos. Her and I can read each other really well, theres a lot of mutual, unspoken respect in how we each are able to control him while he remains under the impression of him being in control.
Thanks for your reply Angel - and the refinements to my original analogy - now the full picture is even clearer. I love game theory applied to social interactions but your Judo goes beyond as it is actually adding an extra layer.
Level 1: People try to win the immediate interaction
Level 2: People try to win the broader status contest
Level 3: People try to not even signal they’re competing
I can already see you and your bro’s girl having that look at one another where you know that you know but you won’t say anything.
yeah, that exactly how it is. its hard to talk about this stuff bc too a noob's mind, it starts to look beta. but its very different. At 'Level 3', we refuse to compete bc we know we already won, why re-open the competition? So we starve her frame battle attempts by not giving them mental ping. This is how high status people ACTUALLY treat her, she cant get them to fight back, feel threatened, feel rejected, feel anything. So she tries harder and harder. Still no ping. Then she does something we like and then we DO ping on that. Now she learns, "this is what he will reward me for being"
But to a noob, its hard bc to them, it looks like he is 'tolerating bad behavior'. and by being nice back to it he is 'supplicating'. But thats bc his mind (attention hierarchy) is already at max ping, he is mentally focusing on her, feels threatened, and it will show up in his thread choice and esp his lack of vibe.
Whereas the right way to be is, I already won the game. I'm relaxed. Nothing she says or does matters or has any reflection on me. My mind is unthreatened and so I stay on vibe. She can do all kinds of overtures to try and get me to ping, but that is just her lowering her own status, trying to get a reaction, trying to be heard and believed. The more fun I am and the more she ignores that fun to stay on her little inner drama... the more coolness and status she bleeds, she must feel insecure and threatened to want to stay on this status/power struggle thread. I guess she doesnt feel cool yet. Dont worry, hang around me and it'll eventually rub off.
This is how I got my megahottie girl boss. I was the most unflappable guy. She tried so hard to intimidate me, all this power bullshit. I was as chill as water, the latent force, cant control me I already own 70% of this planet, I got nothing to prove bc I already won and I know it. So she cracked, defeated herself with her frame battle attempts that never got any ping, just tired herself out punching air. Then I pinged on what I wanted to see more of, and she became that. After that she used to always say 'you are always the most comfortable guy in the room'. 'I NEVER date guys like you, but you have this thing. You are just SO YOU and everyone feels it. It all just fits'.
Thanks for adding to my answer and developing further. It is always interesting to have your challenging (dare I say contrarian) POV, as it really pushes the reasoning deeper.
The logic stands. The idea of not pigging out, of not confirming the validity of the frame she sets, goes with the non-crystallisation of the frame battle and just waiting for her to tire herself out.
From a purely micro standpoint, whatever the price you pay (because you can afford it from your status surplus vs "max ping"), this is how to get a hard-to-handle woman. So, not arguing your 'get to the outcome' over 'everything else' angle, which it achieves.
Though you may call me basic, washed up, or simple-minded, but I can't, for the life of me, at 36 years old, understand why I should entertain negative energy for too long (men and women included), not because I want to teach them a lesson, but just because I don’t invest bandwidth in low-vibe behavior - not out of reaction (unless I want to troll and get a laugh out of it), just preference. I will tolerate more friction if the premise of the original narrative between the two of us is interesting enough for me to overlook it, or if I want the occasional dust-off challenge.
Joking aside, I hope that megahottie girl boss was worth it, and that the display of unflappability yielded its fruit for your relationship, where she adapted to you with fewer hiccups afterwards. I have found that people show you who they are from the start (provided I did not fuck up). And my sense is that you enjoy the razor's-edge dynamic; it’s where the whole thing feels most alive for you.
"I can't, for the life of me, at 36 years old, understand why I should entertain negative energy for too long (men and women included), not because I want to teach them a lesson, but just because I don’t invest bandwidth in low-vibe behavior"
To me, its irrelevant. I mean, TOP-TOP guys, get our asses kissed daily. A person treating me good changes nothing... a person treating me bad changes nothing. How they treat me has very little bearing on anything in my mind. I already know who I am, all their feedback is irrelevant and frankly a waste of time.
My MAIN thing is to figure out who they are, to evaluate them as an asset. Whether I like them has nothing to do with if they like me, I can easily solve that, and that feedback has no value to me anyways. I dont need another person to kiss my ass, and I already know I always get what I want anyways, once I decide. Its like I am looking to buy a classic car. I dont care if the current owner is a total dick. Im trying to determine its asset to me. Bc I can quickly see past all that and see I got 800 hp engine they only made 10 versions serial numbers of. Sure she's hot, that's irrelevant to me. I dont care if shes a ferocious bitch, I'll have her purring soon. What I DO care is.... what IS she and what can I get out of it. Is the smart? responsible? partier? loyal? hoe? I'm ok with all of that, I got uses for all of them.
For ex: I dated a girl who had attitude. irresponsible, disloyal. But I know she was socially brilliant. So I kept it strong, tossed her a few bangs so I could tap her social network. She ended up repaying me with my very first FFM threesome. Another girl... tried too hard to screen me, powergaming me. But I ended up not liking that she just didnt seem socially smart, too much anxiety. BUT I rode with it and got a killer new weed dealer out of it. Another girl... total bitch. But I kept her around, used her for social proof at the bar, she ended up playing a critical role in me landing another and even more importantly set me up with a connection to a local player with real access.
I can always find a use out of them for me. There's no such things as bad products, only bad marketers. No such thing as bad horses, just bad trainers. I wont let my ego stop me from making a profit, always
Not gonna lie, you are making a strong case here; talking about utilitarianmaxxxing, and using my language, you know how to speak to me.
As well you could not have been more well-timed with your response. I came out of a date today with a chick when mid-way I realised she was one of the lead (toxic) dating influencers online for females from TikTok, and started to do business, even though the date was not particularly to my usual liking.
Writing a lay report or specific examples that utilize this would be really helpful to put this into practice. Your tactics and models are really unique and resonate with me, examples that apply them is the missing piece for me.
the one I just published to my youtube yesterday contains a lot of elements of it. basically ALL my LRs do bc this is a fundamental part of my entire game and has been ever since 2012
Great stuff.
In tech sales the gameplan is to listen for the levers that need to be pulled to stop the customer from losing money. Or make them a lot more money. And that justifies the purchase of the tech.
(95% of salespeople do not do this naturally lol)
Sounds like your VP took the frame easily because he spent the call listening to form a much sharper understanding of the business on the table.
So when he articulates that understanding, the other VP just looks like a dork in the way of the outcome of making a lot of money for his biz.
yes this example is very similar to it, and it touches on a lot of the same core elements
I never had the right word for it before, but "latent" captures it perfectly. The moment someone needs to show dominance, it reveals a doubt that requires outside validation, whereas not needing to display it usually means you already have it. In poker and with chicks, I’ve always thought of this dynamic as "slowplaying", showing less strength than you hold (or not if you wanna bluff on sequencing alone) and letting the overly aggressive player trap themselves, extracting value by using their own momentum. Since you’ve mentioned sports betting before, I wasn’t sure if you’ve played much poker, but I’m curious, do you see this as the same principle you call Judo, or are there meaningful differences in your view?
thanks for the kind words OG. exactly, it is weird like that where by flexing it, we reduce the impression of it. It does reveal doubt, which bleeds frame (much of game is just showing outwardly that we have won the battle vs doubt inwardly).
Not a huge poker player but I think slowplaying is in the realm of it. I think a better example would be bluffing hard and showing you were, getting them confident often dont have shit. Build their confidence, then bam, catch em cocky on a big pot. Another example is chess when we use gambits. Trading capital to cost them tempo, structure, and positioning, setting up strong counterplay. My guy friend is very sumo, its funny bc his girl and I are expert judos. Her and I can read each other really well, theres a lot of mutual, unspoken respect in how we each are able to control him while he remains under the impression of him being in control.
Thanks for your reply Angel - and the refinements to my original analogy - now the full picture is even clearer. I love game theory applied to social interactions but your Judo goes beyond as it is actually adding an extra layer.
Level 1: People try to win the immediate interaction
Level 2: People try to win the broader status contest
Level 3: People try to not even signal they’re competing
I can already see you and your bro’s girl having that look at one another where you know that you know but you won’t say anything.
yeah, that exactly how it is. its hard to talk about this stuff bc too a noob's mind, it starts to look beta. but its very different. At 'Level 3', we refuse to compete bc we know we already won, why re-open the competition? So we starve her frame battle attempts by not giving them mental ping. This is how high status people ACTUALLY treat her, she cant get them to fight back, feel threatened, feel rejected, feel anything. So she tries harder and harder. Still no ping. Then she does something we like and then we DO ping on that. Now she learns, "this is what he will reward me for being"
But to a noob, its hard bc to them, it looks like he is 'tolerating bad behavior'. and by being nice back to it he is 'supplicating'. But thats bc his mind (attention hierarchy) is already at max ping, he is mentally focusing on her, feels threatened, and it will show up in his thread choice and esp his lack of vibe.
Whereas the right way to be is, I already won the game. I'm relaxed. Nothing she says or does matters or has any reflection on me. My mind is unthreatened and so I stay on vibe. She can do all kinds of overtures to try and get me to ping, but that is just her lowering her own status, trying to get a reaction, trying to be heard and believed. The more fun I am and the more she ignores that fun to stay on her little inner drama... the more coolness and status she bleeds, she must feel insecure and threatened to want to stay on this status/power struggle thread. I guess she doesnt feel cool yet. Dont worry, hang around me and it'll eventually rub off.
This is how I got my megahottie girl boss. I was the most unflappable guy. She tried so hard to intimidate me, all this power bullshit. I was as chill as water, the latent force, cant control me I already own 70% of this planet, I got nothing to prove bc I already won and I know it. So she cracked, defeated herself with her frame battle attempts that never got any ping, just tired herself out punching air. Then I pinged on what I wanted to see more of, and she became that. After that she used to always say 'you are always the most comfortable guy in the room'. 'I NEVER date guys like you, but you have this thing. You are just SO YOU and everyone feels it. It all just fits'.
Thanks for adding to my answer and developing further. It is always interesting to have your challenging (dare I say contrarian) POV, as it really pushes the reasoning deeper.
The logic stands. The idea of not pigging out, of not confirming the validity of the frame she sets, goes with the non-crystallisation of the frame battle and just waiting for her to tire herself out.
From a purely micro standpoint, whatever the price you pay (because you can afford it from your status surplus vs "max ping"), this is how to get a hard-to-handle woman. So, not arguing your 'get to the outcome' over 'everything else' angle, which it achieves.
Though you may call me basic, washed up, or simple-minded, but I can't, for the life of me, at 36 years old, understand why I should entertain negative energy for too long (men and women included), not because I want to teach them a lesson, but just because I don’t invest bandwidth in low-vibe behavior - not out of reaction (unless I want to troll and get a laugh out of it), just preference. I will tolerate more friction if the premise of the original narrative between the two of us is interesting enough for me to overlook it, or if I want the occasional dust-off challenge.
Joking aside, I hope that megahottie girl boss was worth it, and that the display of unflappability yielded its fruit for your relationship, where she adapted to you with fewer hiccups afterwards. I have found that people show you who they are from the start (provided I did not fuck up). And my sense is that you enjoy the razor's-edge dynamic; it’s where the whole thing feels most alive for you.
"I can't, for the life of me, at 36 years old, understand why I should entertain negative energy for too long (men and women included), not because I want to teach them a lesson, but just because I don’t invest bandwidth in low-vibe behavior"
To me, its irrelevant. I mean, TOP-TOP guys, get our asses kissed daily. A person treating me good changes nothing... a person treating me bad changes nothing. How they treat me has very little bearing on anything in my mind. I already know who I am, all their feedback is irrelevant and frankly a waste of time.
My MAIN thing is to figure out who they are, to evaluate them as an asset. Whether I like them has nothing to do with if they like me, I can easily solve that, and that feedback has no value to me anyways. I dont need another person to kiss my ass, and I already know I always get what I want anyways, once I decide. Its like I am looking to buy a classic car. I dont care if the current owner is a total dick. Im trying to determine its asset to me. Bc I can quickly see past all that and see I got 800 hp engine they only made 10 versions serial numbers of. Sure she's hot, that's irrelevant to me. I dont care if shes a ferocious bitch, I'll have her purring soon. What I DO care is.... what IS she and what can I get out of it. Is the smart? responsible? partier? loyal? hoe? I'm ok with all of that, I got uses for all of them.
For ex: I dated a girl who had attitude. irresponsible, disloyal. But I know she was socially brilliant. So I kept it strong, tossed her a few bangs so I could tap her social network. She ended up repaying me with my very first FFM threesome. Another girl... tried too hard to screen me, powergaming me. But I ended up not liking that she just didnt seem socially smart, too much anxiety. BUT I rode with it and got a killer new weed dealer out of it. Another girl... total bitch. But I kept her around, used her for social proof at the bar, she ended up playing a critical role in me landing another and even more importantly set me up with a connection to a local player with real access.
I can always find a use out of them for me. There's no such things as bad products, only bad marketers. No such thing as bad horses, just bad trainers. I wont let my ego stop me from making a profit, always
Not gonna lie, you are making a strong case here; talking about utilitarianmaxxxing, and using my language, you know how to speak to me.
As well you could not have been more well-timed with your response. I came out of a date today with a chick when mid-way I realised she was one of the lead (toxic) dating influencers online for females from TikTok, and started to do business, even though the date was not particularly to my usual liking.
Money over Ego for sure.
Writing a lay report or specific examples that utilize this would be really helpful to put this into practice. Your tactics and models are really unique and resonate with me, examples that apply them is the missing piece for me.
the one I just published to my youtube yesterday contains a lot of elements of it. basically ALL my LRs do bc this is a fundamental part of my entire game and has been ever since 2012
https://youtu.be/twMXcGaVROo
the aforementioned x account rhymes with the word "frown"?